I was having a conversation with someone concerning incarceration, because they were asked at a jury selection whether they thought it was better to incarcerate someone in prison who was innocent or let someone go who was guilty? Coming up with an answer to that question by itself is non-sensical, because it presupposes that the system itself is hugely flawed. If the criminal justice system asks that question, then it already understands itself to be flawed, because it assumes that locking up innocent people happens.
When a society has already incarcerated the "poor" into ghettos and projects, what is the big deal with locking them in prisons? This is only the next logical step in dealing with those who look differently than the people in power. Many who work within the system think, "Well, people we lock up have probably committed crimes they got away with, so justice is 'simply catching up with them."'
Most of those incarcerated today are for "drug offenses", which contribute to violent crime, but in reality are criminalizing addictions. I agree with the criminal justice system in order to prevent the violent from preying on those who are weak. The problem becomes when the weak are the ones being incarcerated. I am not saying that there is an easy answer, which is the problem with modernity in the first place in that there is the unified science of rationalism to provide for answers to all the questions. When something appears outside of the scope of this paradigm, we have put it "out of sight and out of mind", refusing to address it or even look at it. Tell me from this picture, where is hope to be found?
Reconciliation is hard work, but above the hard work, it takes time, patience, and love. I think if the apostle Paul were alive today, he would use those three words instead of "faith and hope", because "time and patience", is the result of faith and hope. Reconciliation also does not involve me coming to another and telling them that everything will be alright, because in a lot of situations, it won't be.
N.T. Wright has written a blog entry for the Washington Post/On Faith section which can be accessed through my blog, read his post entitled, "Start by understanding salvation", in which he fuses faith and works; i.e. grace is about the outworking of faith to produce followers of Jesus.
|
|
12 comments:
Check this out:
Romans 13:1-7
"1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. 5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience' sake. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God's ministers attending continually to this very thing. 7 Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor."
#1 - According to verse one, who is the authority over America's justice system?
#2 - According to verse three, to whom are the police in America a terror to?
#3 - Is the US government more or less evil than the Roman government of Pauls day and does that matter?
You affirmed my blog post, because I said that Modernity attempts to draw rational, scientific conclusions, so that it can have specific answers to questions.
Romans 13:1-7 is written to the governing authorities, because what Paul say's here is what the governing authorities WERE NOT doing. The Roman government did not do these things in which Paul speaks. So, here is the what it should say today, "Christians and Jews, the Nazi government is established to be God's minister to you for good, so if you do evil, i.e. be a Jew or Christian, be afraid for he is God's minister for he does not bear the gas chamber in vain..."
You get my point.
I believe in God's wrath, I believe human sinfulness, but I also believe in systems and powers which are evil and corrupt.
I believe that what Paul was saying here was to establish the community of the church, because the church was thought of as subversive, because they did not "Hail Caesar as Lord", which was a capital offense.
Paul then is saying to them, "Christians, the government is subject to God, therefore, as a Christian follow the way of peace," but that never meant lying down and giving up.
We as Christians, DO NOT believe that we pick ourselves up and clean ourselves off, that is Heresy. (See Pelagius/Augustine controversy)
If a system is preventing people from knowing God and his freedom, then we as Christians stand with God, therefore, it may mean standing against a system.
One last thing, please don't think that the police are not culpable. The police are sometimes a terror to God's ways, other times they are a terror to evil.
We need the police, but I do not ascribe worth-ship to the police.
Thanks for the comments.
There is so much that i want to say in response to what you have said here but i just don't have time. Let's just go with this:
What was it that Jesus said while he was submitting himself to the Roman death on a cross? What i mean is specfically, what did he say to the "policemen" who were administering his unjust punishment? From His response, what do you think Jesus' view was on government?
Why does what Jesus said to the Father about the Roman guards mean that he was agreeing with them? I don't think that Jesus thought of the Romans crucifying him on a cross as a good thing, but yet submitted himself anyway to the "powers that be."
The evil which encompassed the political realm of the 1st century would have no rivals, and the Romans made sure by stamping a sign on top of Jesus' cross saying, "King of the Jews", which should have had a P.S., and if anyone else attempts to claim political rivalry, we will kill them also.
There was no "separation of Church and state" in the 1st century. When we hear the story of the denarius and Jesus says, "Whose inscription is on the denarius?" We think, see Jesus was saying, pay taxes in the public realm, pay to God what is God's in the private realm of the church. But there was no distinct split. The Temple was the treasury for Israel, and what doesn't belong to God anyway? Which is why we pay taxes. :)
The split which exists causes us to either do nothing; or petition for the causes we believe in. If I just say, "Father, forgive them", which absolutely is a prayer that I should be praying, then I have to accept all public policy: abortion on demand, gay marriage, socialism, communism, whatever the government says, I should do, right? Also, the reason that we should be calling people, systems, and the government to live in God's kingdom, is that humans really sometimes don't know that they are participating in evil, so we can intercede for them as did Jesus.
Maybe Jesus had compassion on the Roman guards, because they really did not know who he was, and he was "moved with compassion" for them; I think though that we think in all or nothing categories, which causes us to limit our thinking to our spheres of living.
Another question for another time: "If the cross was God's purpose; which I believe it was; then were Pilate, the Jews, merely participating in God's redemption of humanity, and should they be judged?"
Peace, Word!
P.S. When I ask these questions, it is to engage in dialogue, because I think that is how we learn, not because I always agree with what I am asking. Sorry this is so long.
Also, the original question from the blog post was, "Where is hope to be found?"
The gospel is the proclamation of the "good news", which is the incarnation of Jesus, i.e. the Word of God. This incarnation is to be lived out in society, in various forms, creatively, passionately, with a love for God and ALL of humanity.
How can we participate in what God is doing with creation, here and now? I am excited to find out.
The reason it is important to note what Jesus' attitude was towards the Roman government is that we must ask ourselves, "If Jesus was willing to submit to the Roman government, what should i do with the government i am under?" In America, we have the wonderful opportunity to participate in government and be an instrument for positive change. If you are advocating positive change, i am for that in a way that is lawful according to what is outlined in our laws. It begs the question, "Was the American revolution a Christian revolution?"
Anyway, i don't want to get off subject!! :)
The subject at hand is, "Is America's judicial system fair according to God's standards and how can we conform our judicial system to a more Godly standard?" I think that is the crux of your question. I see two answers to your question. One from the standpoint of, "What do we do as a secular nation?" and one from the standpoint of "What do we do as a Chrisitan community?"
In regards to the former question, i believe that we have the most fair system in the world. Regardless of whether or not other nations see us as a Christian nation, this county ceased being such several decades ago. God is no longer the central focus of a mojority of our fellow countrymen. This is why it is important to recognize what Jesus stance on governing authorities is. Because Jesus sumbitted himself to what i would call one of the harshest governments (yes, i realize there have been harsher governments), i need to submit to the government i am under or move to one i agree with more. To further illustrate this, the apostle Paul illaborates on this point in Romans 13. i am surprised that you would say that Paul was saying that those things that he wrote about are the opposite of what the Roman government were doing. The arguement i feel that you are making by saying this is that if a government is not doing "good" then we have the right to do whatever we want. i thought there was no right and wrong? ;) That is true on one hand and dangerous on the other. I look back at historically what the 1st church did about the injustices by the Roman governemnt and i see that they submitted to their rulers in a non-violent fashion. In regards to taxes, i think that your arguement does not work regarding what Jesus said about the denarius. What you are saying about the temple tax being the tax for the people because that is where all of the gold was kept for God is probably true up until the Roman government took control of Israel. Once they took control they demanded their tax but the temple also required its tax. Jesus was clearly saying that it is right to pay both. Paul backs up Jesus' stance in Romans 13. How scripture could be interpreted another way is beyond me. In conclusion, we have the opportunity in this wonderful system we live under to be instruments of positive change. Let's all work towards being a part of positive change!
The latter question is much easier to answer. As Christians within the Christian community we need to be much more foriving to our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ because we were forgiven much. Jesus implores us not to take our fellow believers to courts 'casting our pearls before swine'. Let's all work towards peace within our own community! What a testimony it would be if we got along within our own community of believers it would be to our neighbors.
Lastly, i think that what Paul says in Ephesians 6:12 really hits home here, "For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of [fn3] the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places." If we make the focus of our fight secular governments we have missed what the foundation of our fight is. Let's pray for the salvation of our neighborhoods, our states, our country and our world. Only through the life-changing work of the Holy Spirit can a heart be truly changed. He gives true hope to the hopeless.
"If we make the focus of our fight secular governments we have missed what the foundation of our fight is".
Could you expound a little upon this statement? Are you saying that we as Christians fight spiritual battles? If you are then who fights physical battles?
I am in agreement with almost all of what you say. We say things which are similar, except in nuanced ways.
I think that sometimes there is a "sacred"/"secular" split in your vocabulary. The Politics of Jesus were meant for real, earthly, means, in which I do not place government in one sphere; religion in the other. If I believe that I can do that, I have already fallen into a dualism, in which spiritual realities dwell only in the Christian communities, except for the fact that those communities are supposed to be "in the world".
Instead of thinking that politics is something which the government does, I realize that within the structure of the life of Jesus and Paul, there was no split.
There was a Platonic dualism in the Mediterranean world in which Paul preached, which said that the body is evil, i.e. the fleshly body, and in order to attain perfection, we need to leave the earthly body behind, to attain spiritual perfection. Paul said, "Ya', NO!" We do not believe that the material world is evil, we believe it was created as good, but has strayed from its original God intended purpose, in which Christ came to redeem the powers, to bring them back to their original vocation.
I also don't actually believe you would think that I think we should do whatever we want, when the government is not doing "good". The "right and wrong" debate once again has to do with the Enlightenment, not with the nature of good and evil.
Here is a question, "If an illegal immigrant is in your church; joins a small group, wants to participate in community, worships God, serves the needs of the church along with his wife and children, what do we do, knowing he is illegal and breaking the laws of this country?"
Also, I would be interested to know what decade God left this country?
Was it the same decade that we gave African-Americans the right to vote, integrated schools, you know the '60's?
In Jesus submitting himself to the government, what does that mean? It shows me Jesus' stance towards non-violence, because he submitted himself to God who judges justly (I Peter). This means that we also walk in the ways of non-violence, that's what you are saying right? :)
Thanks again, I like the dialogue.
You have a lot of questions! I will have answers...in time. Let's start at the top.
You asked me to expand upon my statement about secular governments and where the "real" fight lays. i am going to use your own words to make this point when you said that when Joshua went into the promised land they took Jericho because God delivered it into their hands. You went on to say that God always intended to fight their battles for them but as the people of Israel continued in the land they fought battles themselves. However, the true intent of God was to fight the battles for them. They were to dress up in their armor and go out to fight but God was going to do the heavy work. Remember what Joshua said to the man he met as he went up to check the city out? "Are you for us or for our enemy?" The Angel replied, "Neither but I represent the armies of God Most High." Too often in America we see it as "us v. them" and i don't think that is how God sees battles. What God is MOST concerned with is the heart condition of the human race.
The conclusion is that we fight physical battles because we must. It is part of the human struggle. People can talk about utopia's that they wish would happen in the Christian realm here on earth but God never told us that we could create such a Utopia here until He comes back to create a new heaven and a new earth. i believe strongly in the ideal that you hold that we should strive for a strong Christian community but i am also aware of the fact that i will not be able to erradicate pain and suffering from this world. Only the healing power of the Holy Spirit can do that. That is where the physical battle ends and the spiritual battle begins.
Let's use an example. Let's say i am against jail overcrowding. I have several options. I can go so the local legislators and tell them to build a bigger jail so that the prisoners and housed more humanely. (That has been done) I can go to the ACLU and ask them to start a lawsuit against the local jail. (That has been done) I could lead a petition for a bigger jail that would go to the people and have them vote a new jail to be built. (That has been done and it only received 23% of the vote) Another option is to witness to people who are offenders and encourage them to find Christ. Tony Brooks volunteers at a local youth minimum security prison. Tony tells me that the guys in there understand the law. They know they need a savior. Tony shows them God's word and that there is a savior that loves them deeply and wants to change their lives from the inside out. The results are amazing. Listen to testmonies from Prison Fellowship Ministries. Our prison system is having a tough time because they cannot recommend a "religious" organization but at the same time you can't argue with the statistics. The recurrence rate of those people who have gone through the program of Prison Fellowship Misistries is staggering. So few people reoffend who go through their program that the prisons are asking them to come in and share the gospel! Now men and women in prison are hearing about the good news of Jesus Christ and are trying to live for Him when they get out. The only thing i can think of that is better than that is to get to them before they go to prison! i strongly encourage you to look at the stats surrounding this life changing program (http://www.pfm.org/generic.asp?ID=217)
God changes lives. We can look for "socialistic" ways to solve social problems but this battle, as do most of them, belongs to the Lord.
First, I think that what Prison Fellowship does is a very good work. 16% of offenders repeatedly commit 84% of the crimes. As our population grows though, that 16% is a lot of people.
I do know a little about people who commit crimes, and the reasons behind those crimes, vary dramatically. People don 't want to grow up and be criminals, despite what they say. You said that most of the people in prison know they broke the law. I think that most people recognize that robbery, assault, drug dealing is a violation of our penal system. We also don't teach that people can simply make rational choices to avoid "sin", that is not the gospel or "good news".
You are absolutely right when you say that we will not be able to erradicate pain and suffering from this world, so as a Christian I want to walk with those who themselves are walking in "pain and suffering". This is a dynamic aspect to the prison fellowship which I think is extremely important and I applaud Tony Brooks and yourself for the work that both of you are doing. Although you personally may not be going into the prison, everything you talk to Tony about affects what he does, so therefore, you are contributing to his ministry.
When the people though get out of prison, they go back to where they live, which is in predominantly poor neighborhoods, and who wants to hire a criminal for a job?
Sometimes I get concerned because we as Americans have difficulty identifying with the physical, bodily repercussions of our own sins. We sometimes think that our sins are spiritual "heavenly sins", but others sins are criminal, or "earthly sins".
Everything we do should be "social". It should be concerned with the incarnation of the gospel of Christ.
If God allowed me opportunities, then why would he not want others to have the same opportunities, and if I do nothing with what God has given me, why will I not be judged the same?
Peace, much love and respect to you. Paul
I like your statistic about 16% of criminals repeatedly committ 84% of the crimes. Did you look at the link i gave you? In prisons where Prison Fellowship Ministries is working repeat offenders has gone from 23% to 10%. That is not by luck, my friend. That is by the transformation of the Holy Spirit working in those men and women's lives. It is true that if i went back to people i used to hang out with i would likely end up doing the things that i used to do. However, Prison Fellowship Ministries and any ministry that understands human nature has a community of believers that wraps their arms around that person once they get out. The body of Christ reaches out to that person to help them have a better life.
Please help me to understand your postition. What i hear from your blogs is that Christians are so bad. Just once i would like to hear a positive blog on what Christians are doing well. It seems like you think that Christians in America believe that George Bush is God, illegal immigrants are sent by the devil and that if Jesus came back today he would go on the Rush Limbaugh show. The Christians that i know are freer (if that's a word) thinkers than that, like yourself. What about some positive thoughts about that?
Hey, since we ironed out some of the distinctive differences this morning, I probably do not need to respond. I hope that you and you beautiful baby are feeling better.
Also, if you want any more detailed exegesis about I Timothy, let me know. :)
Actually, one last thing, if you are ever interested, a notable theologian named N.T. Wright has written an essay entitled "Womens Service in the Church: A Biblical Basis." It is on the right side of his web page, which can be accessed through my blog page.
It addresses some of the issues we discuss, and I would never expect that you would not critically examine it, but I would love to hear your response.
Thanks, Paul
Post a Comment